Transcript: Interview with Paul Ioannidis of the Onassis Foundation

ioannidisThe transcript of Dialogos Radio’s interview with Paul Ioannidis, the honorary vice-president of the Onassis Foundation and author of “Destiny Prevails,” follows below. This interview aired on April 3-4, 2014. Find the podcast of this interview here.

MN: With us here on Dialogos Radio and the Dialogos Interview Series today is Paul Ioannides, the Honorary Vice-President of the Onassis Foundation’s Board of Directors and author of “Destiny Prevails” an autobiography chronicling his life and experiences fighting the Nazis during World War II as a rebel fighter in the Greek mountains. His later distinguished career as a pilot and executive for Olympic Airways, and his long relationship with the Onassis group and the Onassis family for over five decades. Paul, thank you for joining us today.

You were actually born in Germany in the interwar period but your family soon came back to Greece and you grew up in Athens. Ironically, though, it was your German birth certificate that got you out of trouble on a few occasions during war, I believe. Tell us about your early years.

PI: My father was born in Cyprus. He studied Medicine in France and attended post-graduate studies in Berlin where I was born. My mother died six months after I was born.  I was in love with the sea ever since I could remember. I wanted to attend the Naval Academy in order to become an officer. I would not hear of anything else.  By the end of 1942, seeing that the German troops were still on my home soil, I felt like I could not contain my anger and I decided that it was not time for studying but only for fighting. So I left home to take to the mountains and joined the Resistance the first days of 1943 with the Greek People’s Liberation Army, known as ELAS.

MN: In October 1943 you joined Force 133, which was instrumental in a couple of decisive but not-widely-known operations in Greece during the war which, I believe, you played a role in as well. Tell us about these operations.

PI: The first group of British paratroopers of Force 133 landed on the mountain range in Giona on October 30, 1942. In early November, during a full moon, a second group of British paratroopers landed in an area where ELAS partisans, including their leader Aris Velouchiotis, were located. The British commandos’ mission was to blow up the bridge at Gorgopotamos rendering it inaccessible which would disrupt one of the main supply lines to Rommel’s army, stopping the advance of German and Italian troops in North Africa. Aris Velouchiotis finally accepted to join them in the mission they were undertaking. The operation was finally set for midnight November 25, 1942, during which they blew up the bridge.

The success of the operation was ultimately due to the good collaboration and bravery of the partisan forces of National Republican Greek League, known as EDES, and ELAS, under the leadership of Zervas and Velouchiotis, respectively, together with the team of British paratroopers, led by Colonel Eddy Myers and Major Chris M. Woodhouse.

Seven months later, in June 1943, the Allied Command decided to blow up the bridge of Asopos. At that time, there was no way for Zervas (EDES) to get his men into position due to the hostility that existed with Velouchiotis (ELAS). Furthermore, Velouchiotis finally refused to allow ELAS to participate in the new mission.

In light of this, the destruction of the Asopos bridge was successfully carried out by Captain Don Stott of New Zealand, who led five British commandos from Force 133 on this mission in June 1943. The destruction of this bridge still remains practically unknown up to the present day, even though it had the same strategic importance as the bridge of Gorgopotamos.

In mid-February 1944, being stationed at mountain Elikon, headed by major Dillon, we received the order from Allied Command for a group of us to head down near Athens, so that we could watch over the Marathon Dam, which supplied water to the capital and which the Germans had undermined. From that moment onwards I was under the orders of Captain McIntyre and Lieutenant Bob Morton whom, from now, on I will refer to as mac and Bob. Mac ordered me to go to the area of Kiourka and choose a site to establish our new station.

I stayed in Kiourka for two days and found two adjacent caves which were about one hour away from it. This was a suitable place because the caves were more or less unknown to locals. I informed Mac and Bob who agreed.

Towards the end of February 1944, came to the station of Mount Heliconas Colonel Rufus Sheppard who had the codename “Major John” and we left to relocate our new station at Kiourka. Rufus Sheppard, Mac, Bob, Jack (R/O) and four Greeks of F133 including me were on the team.

We loaded our weapons and radio transmitter onto a truck and piled firewood and bags of coal on top, so that it would discourage the Germans to unload and search our vehicle.  Before we headed out, Sheppard gave me a wide belt filled with gold sovereigns, which I wore around my waist. We were now 17 kilometers outside of Thebes. To our left, there were two villages perched on two hills. That is where the Germans had set up their roadblock. The German soldiers pulled us over and ordered us to go up to the village, where their commanding officer would question us. I told them that we were heading to Athens and that we were in a big rush because we had to make it there before the traffic prohibition started. They said that one of us could stay behind with the truck.  Then Sheppard said to me on the sly:

“You stay behind. In case they arrest us, you try to escape with the truck so they don’t find the transmitter and the weapons.”  Besides, I had the belt with the golden sovereigns on me.

A German soldier took the group and led up the hill at gunpoint. The road was clear and I had an unobstructed view to monitor their movements the entire way.  As soon as the others left, I approached the soldiers and told them that I was born in Germany. They looked at me sarcastically and, of course, didn’t believe me. I showed my birth certificate to them. And then things turned a bit more friendly.
After about forty minutes I saw a car approaching from Thebes with two German officers. They stopped and spoke with the soldiers. I figured that they might be able to question our team and release them, so I approached them and spoke to them, while also displaying my birth certificate:

“Could you possible speed up the questioning because we are going to have a problem getting into Athens if we delay too long?”  They were polite, but didn’t answer me. They proceeded to the village.  I didn’t take my eyes off the hill, and in the event that I saw anything suspicious, I was ready to get in the car and try to escape. Not twenty minutes went by, when I saw a group of people heading down. They told me that when the two German officers got up there, they asked them one or two standard questions and then they let them go. Sheppard and the other British men kept silent. We did not run into trouble for the remainder of the way to Kiourka.

We set up our new station and informed Allied Command regarding our new whereabouts. The next morning, we made it to Athens and I accompanied Sheppard to “Pat’s” home on 4 Akadimias Street. “Pat” was the code name of our liaison with Force 133. I gave him back the belt with the sovereigns and I returned to our new station, which had been given the codename “Heaven Station”.  We scouted the area very carefully and focused on finding ways to approach the Marathon Dam.

Since we were so close to Athens, “Heaven” was extremely susceptible to being discovered by the Germans, considering the fact that they had both ground and air surveillance. Sure enough, after two or three weeks, we saw cars near the village with radio direction finders and YU-52 planes flying overhead.

One day, sometime around the middle of April, we went to Kiourka with my colleague Vassilis Remoundos at daybreak to drink some mountain tea. While we were there, a young boy came and told us:

“The Germans are coming up the village.”

We ran outside and saw a convoy of German soldiers about fifty meters away entering the village and climbing up to its highest point. We scampered into the adjacent ravine and ran back up the hill, in between the falls and boulders, as we tried to cross a point that we knew was exposed before the Germans had reached the top of the village, from where they could easily monitor it. They didn’t see us escaping. We carefully followed their movements all day long. They left in the afternoon without approaching our area.

By mid-May 1944 we received an order from Allied Command in Cairo to leave Greece – through Turkey – and report there. The orders were for Mac, Bob, Vassilis, and me. I began to wonder what was going to happen with the Marathon Dam. I asked Mac about it, but he didn’t answer me. The question remained unanswered, especially in light of the fact that the core group from “Heaven” was not going to be replaced. I learned the answer of this question after 62 years which is the following:

On October 2006, I had the good fortune to meet with a colleague from Force 133 who revealed to me that Rufus Sheppard had made a secret agreement with a senior German officer which guaranteed the safe retreat of German forces from the Attica basin provided that the Germans would remove the explosives that they had placed on the Marathon Dam.  To be more specific, it must have been the first week of June 1944 when McIntyre had asked my friend to accompany Sheppard to a building in central Athens, where the German senior officer had his office. My friend was to wait for him nearby and they were to leave using unfrequented roads to make certain they weren’t being followed.

The agreement was signed and everything went smoothly. A few days later, Captain Tamvakas, a member of Force 133, made sure that the explosives were removed.  It was of utmost importance that the Marathon Dam be saved in order to ensure the survival of the inhabitants of the Attica basin.

Now, how was this important meeting, which resulted in saving the Marathon Dam, arranged? During the German occupation Captain McIntyre had met Niki Rallis, the daughter of Prime Minister John Rallis. A very warm friendship developed between them and they got married after the war ended. Despite the fact that the identity of the person who intervened to make this meeting possible was never confirmed, I personally believe that it was set up by Niki Rallis and her father, who was serving as Prime Minister at the time. This appears plausible, given these undeniable and very specific connections.

In spite of all this, no one could say for sure that the Germans would not turn around and compromise the dam once again, so they could blow it up at the last minute, or even after they pulled out from the Attica basin. They withdrew their troops on October 12, 1944.

The following event serves as proof that I was justified in being skeptical. At daybreak on October 12, 1944, a fleet of twelve minesweepers dropped anchor outside of the Saronic Gulf. Their mission was to clear away German mines that were lined along the seaway leading to the port of Piraeus. The mission was code named “MANNA” and was successfully completed. However, five minesweepers and a tanker named “Petronela” were blown up in the process.  The “Petronela” was carrying ten thousand tons of water in the event that the Germans were to go against their word and blow up the Marathon Dam.

MN: You later became a pilot, training first with the British and eventually joining the Greek Air Force. The title of your autobiography “Destiny Prevails,” refers to the story about how you ended up becoming a pilot in the first place. Apparently, as the story goes, you were destined to do so, is that right?

PI: Yes, you are right. After receiving in mid-May 1944 the order from allied command to leave Greece through Turkey and report to Cairo, Mac and Bob gave me the task to plan our withdrawal. After a very careful search I finally met Captain Manthos who was able and willing to take us to Turkey. We would leave from Anavyssos midnight on June 15, 1944.  On the morning of June 14th the four of us left Kiourka on board a pickup truck that was making deliveries to Athens. We were fifteen passengers all in all, and we were standing on the back of the truck. When we got up to Ekali, 16 kilometers north of Athens, we were stopped by a German roadblock. After looking at us very carefully, the commanding officer pointed to Mac, Bob, and me and ordered us to get off the truck. I couldn’t believe it. I managed to tell Vassilis to wait for us in Nea Erythraia until early the next morning, and if we didn’t show up, he should inform “Pat” and leave, according to the plan. We were going to spend the night at a home in Nea Erythraia, which only Vassilis knew about. We looked at one another and tried to figure out what had happened. They ended up taking us to a large field, where there were other people gathered together, and ordered us to fence it off.

They eventually let us go late in the afternoon and we headed down to Nea Erythraia. Words cannot describe our joy and relief as soon as we saw Vassilis and he saw us. We spent the night at the house where Vassilis had taken us. They made coffee for us the next morning out of chick-peas.

The elderly lady of the house insisted on telling our fortune by reading our coffee cups. First she told Mac and Bob their future. Then, turning to me – even though I hadn’t shown the slightest interest in finding out what fate had in store for me – she said in an authoritative voice: “Give me your cup!”

I gave it to her, she flipped it over, turned it left and right, and afterwards, with a very serious demeanor, she said to me: “You are a pilot.”  I assured her that I wasn’t. She insisted that I was, but I continued to argue with her. At some point, annoyed by my insistence, she said: “Alright! Even if you are not, you are going to become one!”  And since this thought had never crossed my mind, I didn’t even pay the slightest attention to her prediction of my future.

The next day, late in the afternoon, Captain Manthos’ contact brought us down to a cave near Anavyssos. We waited until midnight so he could bring us down to the seashore and as soon as the trawler arrived, we boarded.  We passed through the straits between Andros and Tinos islands, and soon saw a German patrol boat heading right for us. It pulled alongside us and asked Captain Manthos for his papers. There was a young German girl with us, married to a Greek named Vergotis. She spoke to them in German, and I joined the conversation as well, showing my birth certificate. They finally let us go.

About two miles from the Turkish coast, we ran out of fuel. We started to row to get to the shore. We got off at Aspra Homata, outside of Çeşme. Turkish soldiers came and detained us. Mac and Bob turned around and told us: “Better that you don’t tell anyone that you are with us.”  They stated that they were British, and the authorities took them away. They took the rest of us to a wretched fenced domicile, and we were not allowed to leave. In a couple of days we managed to speak with the British Consulate in Smyrna and informed him who we were.  The next day, a British dimplomat brought us a travel document, which as I understood, was like a diplomatic passport.  The following morning, we boarded the train in Smyrna, where I met Konstantinos Tsatsos, the future President of Greece. I introduced myself because he knew my family.

After twenty four hours we reached Aleppo, Syria. There, they took us to a refugee camp. The British picked up Vassilis and me in a small army vehicle and after a night stop in Haifa we arrived in Cairo the next day. Before we left, Konstantinos Tsatsos gave me a note to take to his brother Themistoclis, who was a minister of the Greek Government in exile.  I was informed that I could reach Themistoclis Tsatsos at the Sheppard’s Hotel. I went there and gave him the note. My father’s friend, retired Admiral Malamos, was also with him. I got the chance to speak with the admiral and seized the opportunity to ask him to help me get into the Naval Academy that was operating in Alexandria.  “Let me see what I can do,” he said. You can imagine how excited I was. I went back two days later.

“There’s nothing that can be done,” he said to me, because this is not the admission period for new midshipmen.”

I felt like the earth was opening up under my feet ready to swallow me up. My dream was gone forever. The admiral introduced me to the two men who were with him, Panagiotis Kanellopoulos and Petros Rallis. When Rallis saw how upset I had become at not being able to join the Naval Academy, he told me:
“Would you be interested in joining the air force?”  I was so surprised that I answered him: “And what would I do in the air force?”

“You would be a pilot.”

I didn’t answer him. The air force was the last thing that would have ever crossed my mind.

“Think about it. And if you’re interested, come by my office.”

Before saying goodnight, I asked Admiral Malamos who that man was and how I could contact him.

“That’s Petros Rallis, the Minister of the Air Force,” he told me.

Just then, I remembered the words of the elderly woman from Nea Erythraia who had read my coffee cup and told me annoyed by my insistence “Even if you’re not a pilot, you are going to become one.” Could this really be happening?  I left deeply disappointed and concerned.  And since I had no other options at that moment, I decided to accept Petros Rallis’ offer and joined the Greek Royal air force on September 6th 1944.  “Destiny Prevails”

MN: Why did you return the King’s Medal for Courage (KMC) awarded to you for gallantry by King George the VI after World War II?

PI:  After the end of the war I was awarded the “King’s Medal for Courage” of the British Empire by King George the VI for gallantry and a Certificate of Commendation issued by Field marshal Lord Alexander.

On May 10, 1956, I heard over the radio that two freedom fighters, Mihalis Karaolis and Andreas Dimitriou, in Cyprus, had been sentenced to death and executed on the gallows. On the very same day I returned my decorations to the British Ambassador in Athens Charles Peak stating in my letter that the Cypriot patriots were fighting for the same ideals with me. I was honored, but they were instead executed and that I considered these decorations of no value anymore.

MN: You later became a commercial pilot, during the turbulent early days of commercial aviation in Greece. Tell us about this early era and the conditions which led to Aristotle Onassis’ grand entrance into the world of aviation and the formation of Olympic Airways.

PI: Greece’s first private post war passengers’ airline, TAE, which stands for Technical Air Exploitation, was established in 1946. In September of that same year, the airline began making domestic flights. In 1947 the Greek government decided to give permission for the establishment and operation of another three airlines, under the same rights. This decision acted as an obstacle towards the development not only of TAE but also of the three other airlines, as the demand of the Greek market could not sustain more than one carrier.  Eventually, TAE became almost bankrupt and was taken over by the State, and the other three airlines ceased operating.

In 1956 Konstantinos Karamanlis, Prime Minister at the time invited Aristotle Onassis and Stavros Niarchos to invest in Greece for the expansion of the airline transport and shipbuilding sectors. Finally Onassis chose TAE airline which he renamed Olympic Airways and Niarchos took over the shipyard of Skaramaga.

Aristotle Onassis, being a visionaire, was attracted by the airline. This sector was new and very challenging for him. His goal for Olympic Airways was to repeat what he had achieved with his commercial fleet of ships, that is to cross the oceans with the Olympic rings on his ships smokestacks. He was indeed fortunate enough to see his airlines logo fly across the five continents and earn the respect of its competitors and the appreciation of passengers.

The airline’s motto of operation was “safety, passengers’ comfort and economy” in that order. The aircraft appearance reflected the image of Greece. The behavior of the crew had to give out an air of Greek hospitality. He was very proud for his achievement.

MN: We are speaking with Paul Ioannidis, the Honorary Vice-President of the Onassis Foundation’s Board of Directors and the author of “Destiny Prevails”, here on Dialogos Radio and the Dialogos Interview Series. Paul, you eventually ended up having a very close relationship with Aristotle Onassis. Share a few words about your relationship with Onassis and his family.

PI: My relationship with Aristotle Onassis was based on honesty, loyalty, ability to sustain difficult situations, courage to say always my opinion frankly and not to agree with his views, just to please him. He appreciated this attitude of mine, when he made sure that whatever I was telling him made sense, and was always to the benefit of the company and had no connection with my personal aims or interests. The same was the case with Alexander and Christina. Moreover, I shared with Alexander a mutual love for flying. After her father’s death, Christina realized that she could depend on me for any help and advice, which she always appreciated but rarely followed, at least from the first moment. She had the same age with my daughter and our relationship was along this line. Apart from that, I know that Aristotle Onassis had spoken about me to both of his children.

MN: Looking back, do you have one memory or story that stands out from your years with Aristotle Onassis?

PI: Yes, Michael. Since 1968 I was the flight operations director and chief pilot of Olympic Airways. In late April 1971, Onassis called me to come to his house the following day. I went and waited for him in the living room with Costas Konialidis who was his cousin and the managing director of the airline. Onassis joined us shortly after. He then told me that, due to some problems, he had to change the director general of the airline. Without beating around the bush, he added:

“I want you to be the Director General.”

I must say that it was the last thing that I was expecting to hear. After thanking him for the offer, I said:
“I don’t think that I am ready for this position, Mr. Onassis. He responded immediately and said:
“You know the issues involving airport services, the technical aspects, passenger service, and flight operations. What else do you want?”  I repeated that I needed more time to get better acquainted.

“This is what I want, and you should give it serious thought,” he said. “We’ll talk again soon.”  I left mired in thought about how I should act and what I should do.

I discussed this matter with Konialidis, who at one point flatly stated to me: “Paul, I do not want you as director general. Aristos wants you.”  I did not answer him. What could I have said? I never told Onassis about this.

Onassis left on a trip, and when he came back, he stopped by my office and asked me to go to his house the next day to have lunch with him.  I cannot say that I slept well that night. I kept waking up at intervals and thinking about both the Onassis’ offer and what Konialidis had told me.  I went to Onassis’ home the next day.  Onassis started talking to me about expanding the airline and his plans for the future: routes to Australia, Japan, etc. He was speaking to me in such a way as if I was already the Director General. Believe me, I felt really bad.  At the end he told me: “I am going away for a little while, and when I get back we will speak again.”  I began to feel like I was behaving more or less like a prima donna.  I was truly ashamed.

He returned to Athens at the end of June. When we met, he asked me: “Have you made your decision?”

“Yes, thank you Mr. Onassis for your trust”.

The next day Onassis left again to go abroad. However, there were difficulties lying ahead for me.
I went to Olympic Airways’ head office as Director General for the first time on July 5, 1971, but there was no office set up for me. It may sound strange, but it is true. So I set myself up in the conference room used by the board of directors. That is when I remembered again Konialidis’ words: “Paul, I do not want you as Director General. Aristos wants you.” They could not stomach the fact that a pilot ended up becoming the Director General of the company. They probably figured that I would get angry and leave. But I did not give them the satisfaction.

Two weeks had gone by, when Onassis showed up at the board of directors’ conference room one day.
“What are you doing here? Are you holding a meeting?” he asked.

“No, Mr. Onassis. My office is here. There was no other office available.”  He was absolutely furious and at no time an office was made available for me.

“How are you doing otherwise?”

“It is still early, Mr. Onassis. I will come to see you, wherever you are, after twelve months.”

“Good. Call me. I will call you too.”

It was the end of August 1972, and almost fourteen months had gone by since I took over as Director General. The time had come and I called him.  He was in London.

“Is anything wrong?” he asked.

“No,” I answered. “I want to see you”

“Okay. Come on Wednesday afternoon at Claridge’s Hotel”

When we met, I told him about everything that had transpired over the past fourteen months, and I spoke to him about the various problems that I had faced while working with the Managing Director and some other directors of the company.  What I stressed to Onassis repeatedly – in between and at the end of our conversation – was that he could use everything that I had told him regarding my workplace relationship with the managing director and other airline officials. In the event that anyone told him something different, I asked him to call me so that I could repeat what I said in their presence.  In the end, he asked me:

“How is your family?”

“We are all doing well. Thank you, Mr. Onassis.”

“What are you going to do tonight?”

“If you don’t need me, I am going to catch the evening flight back to Athens. I told Mr. Konialidis that I would be back in my office tomorrow morning.”  He turned and stared at me with a puzzled look. Then he told me: “You mean to tell me that Costas knows that you were coming to see me?”

“Of course he knows, Mr. Onassis. I have never done something behind his back. I had told him what I was going to tell you.”

He listened carefully and after a while he told me: “Listen here. God has given you a passport: to have courage. See that you never lose it.”

“Don’t worry, Mr. Onassis. I was born with this and I will die with it.”

We got up, he patted me on the shoulder, and he told me: “Be well. Have a safe trip.”

MN: Your book describes the saga of Athina Onassis, Aristotle Onassis’ granddaughter, particularly after her mother’s death, including the manipulative nature of her father, Thierry Roussel. You have had the opportunity to meet Athina in the past…haw she maintained any sort relationship with Greece and with the Onassis Foundation?

PI: I saw Athina for the first time on January 30, 1985 at the American Hospital in Paris, just one day after she was born. I met her on various occasions before and after her mother’s death. I used to visit her at their residence and especially on her birthday.

My wife and I spent a few days with her and her new family when they visited Scorpios in the summer of 1995 and 1996. Thereafter, I did not have the chance to see her in spite of my wish to do so, due to the dispute with her father who tried through unethical means to take advantage of his daughter’s estate, whilst my colleagues and I were trying hard to safeguard her interests.

Unfortunately, Athina was completely cut off from her Greek roots and has had no contact neither with me, nor with the Foundation. I sent her my book lately and I do hope that she will read it, so that she can appreciate the situations developed in the past.  I do wish her, with all my heart, health, happiness and all the best in her life.

MN: The island of Skorpios, which was long the sanctuary of the Onassis family, was sold to a Russian tycoon in the past year. What were your feelings regarding the sale of this iconic island?

PI: That’s a good question. I had the chance to visit Scorpios many times in the past not only when Aristotle Onassis was alive, but also during Christina’s lifetime. They were both very fond of the island and had an excellent relationship with the local people.

After Christina’s untimely death in 1988, I continued to be linked to Scorpios, as I was responsible for the running of the island until 1999, when a new management was established for the entire estate of Christina’s daughter.

The sale of Scorpios provoked feelings of sadness and disappointment not only to me but to all Greek people. We felt that something of our own was lost. On the island, in the Chapel of Panagitsa, are four graves of the Onassis family. Aristotle’s, his sister’s Artemis, Alexander’s and Christina’s. This makes it even harder, although 7,5 acres including the Chapel of Panagitsa, cannot be sold as provided for in the will of Aristotle Onassis.

MN: In closing, share with us a few words about the Onassis Foundation and some of the things that it does.

PI: The Alexander S. Onassis Public Benefit Foundation’s activities are multifarious, focused on very important areas such as health, culture, education, environment and social solidarity.  The Foundation donated to the Greek state in 1992 the model Onassis Cardiac Surgery Centre. The 127-bed capacity is the first hospital in Greece fully certified in the departments of adult and pediatric heart surgery and cardiology, the only certified hospital in Greece for heart and lung transplantations, maintaining high survival rates internationally. It also supports financially organizations such as ELPIDA for the establishment of cancer hospital for children, and the Hellenic Society for Disabled Children, called ELEPAP.

The Foundation created the Onassis Cultural Centre in Athens, totally dedicated to arts and letters, hosting theatre, dance, music, art exhibitions and visual arts events. Furthermore, its mission is to promote contemporary culture and to educate children and people of all ages through life-long learning.

The Foundation awards scholarships to Greeks for postgraduate studies in Greece and abroad and to non-Greeks for research and postgraduate studies in Greece. Until 2013, approximately 5,150 scholarships have been awarded to Greeks and 825 to foreigners.

The Foundation disseminates Greek civilization all over the world and more particularly to the U.S.A., Canada and South America, through the affiliate foundation headquartered at the Olympic Tower in New York.

MN: Mr. Ioannidis, thank you very much for taking the time to speak with us today and for sharing all of your memories and experiences with us on Dialogos Radio and the Dialogos Interview Series today.

And for our listeners who are interested, Mr. Ioannidis’ book is available as a hard copy on Amazon.com and in Barnes & Noble, and is also available as a Kindle e-book.

Please excuse any typos or errors which may exist within this transcript.

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